Curse

Captain Robo · Jan 16, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Every ranger bar looks like this:

[skill]Crippling shot[/skill][skill]Savage Shot[/skill][skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Apply Poison[/skill][skill]Troll Unguent[/skill][skill]Mending Touch[/skill][skill]Natural Stride[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
[skill]Magebane Shot[/skill]
[skill]Burning Arrow[/skill]
[skill]Broad Head Arrow[/skill]

If you are playing a non-thumper ranger in gvg, you are playing one of these bars.

Does anyone else see the problem with an entire class defined by 6-7 skills and toolbox elites?

Zabe · Jan 16, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

You forgot screaming shot.

Lordhelmos · Jan 16, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Magebane takes the skill out of interruption, its just that simple. You can camp on a target and mindless spam Magebane with decent results. One of the most retarded things about it is that it goes right through the component of the blockweb designed to stop it, which is "shield's up." I doubt it would be much longer before they unstupify this skill.

Yue · Jan 16, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

One of the most retarded things about it is that it goes right through the component of the blockweb designed to stop it, which is "shield's up."

Pretty sure that was the whole point of magebane genius.

Dominator1370 · Jan 16, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Think of it from Izzy's perspective: Blockweb is a problem. Interrupts can stop blockweb, but (for a Ranger) blockweb would have to be down (or you'd have to get lucky) for that to happen, so Izzy gave Rangers an unblockable interrupt. It's no fun playing "whoever can get an interrupt through 3 layers of block first gets to push".

I think Magebane as a skill is a good concept. I'll consider the argument that Magebane is too spamable, and I'd like to see what raising the cost to 10e does to the skill, even though I know a lot of people are gunning for a recharge hit. I'd be afraid that might suddenly make packing 3 interrupts seem like a better idea, since obviously the longer you can disable skills, the better, and people are still going to want an available-on-demand, spammable interrupt. They'd have to look to Savage.

I'm aware that you don't need a Ranger to take down a blockweb, but I think that more options can only be a good thing. Magebane is an excellent option for helping to pull down blockwebs, and I hope it doesn't get hit too hard. Mindless interrupt spam isn't a good thing, but neither is mindless blockweb spam.

Burton2000 · Jan 16, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Tbh crip shot is better elite than magebane if you plan on doing any splitting. The movement control it provides is just too good not to take (unless you know your playing 8v8). The only hit to magebane would be to give it 10 energy as a nerf to recharge would be too much for the skill imo.

Captain Robo · Jan 16, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I think someone earlier suggested the following clause to magebane:

"If Magebane Shot fails to interrupt a spell, it is disabled for X...Y seconds"

and scales with marksmanship.

If nobody suggested this before, I'll suggest it now. Spam problem solved.

Lordhelmos · Jan 16, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Pretty sure that was the whole point of magebane genius.

Just pointing out that in its current state the skill is unstoppable by any means and has the ability to lock any skill over 1 second out of play. Even spamming it can catch stuff like reversal. Perhaps it was designed to combat heavy block chains, but its too unspecified in its current state. It kills rez signets, warrior spike, assassin combos, just about everything but shouts and insta-cast are threatened by this skill. If their goal was to make the skill operate like this, perhaps they should have named it "All-bane" shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dominator1370

Think of it from Izzy's perspective: Blockweb is a problem. Interrupts can stop blockweb, but (for a Ranger) blockweb would have to be down (or you'd have to get lucky) for that to happen, so Izzy gave Rangers an unblockable interrupt. It's no fun playing "whoever can get an interrupt through 3 layers of block first gets to push".

I think Magebane as a skill is a good concept. I'll consider the argument that Magebane is too spamable, and I'd like to see what raising the cost to 10e does to the skill, even though I know a lot of people are gunning for a recharge hit. I'd be afraid that might suddenly make packing 3 interrupts seem like a better idea, since obviously the longer you can disable skills, the better, and people are still going to want an available-on-demand, spammable interrupt. They'd have to look to Savage.

I'm aware that you don't need a Ranger to take down a blockweb, but I think that more options can only be a good thing. Magebane is an excellent option for helping to pull down blockwebs, and I hope it doesn't get hit too hard. Mindless interrupt spam isn't a good thing, but neither is mindless blockweb spam.

There's mesmer interrupts for killing defensive spells too. It's easier to pleak a ward then it is to hit it with an arrow. The reason ranger interrupts are used is because of recharge.

Anyway, last of my comments on Magebane, its starting to derail the topic.

Burton2000 · Jan 16, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Of course your going to interupt stuff if you spam interupts. Spam pd and you interupt rof as well eventually.

Vanquisher · Jan 16, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Monks are still capable of standing up to offensive threats without defense webs.

No they aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

MB+DShot+Savage, is a little overdoing it, dont you think ?
I'd rather take MB+Dshot and some pressure/damage over Savage (cannot go without DShot for it's skill locking)

So what if it's overdoing it? People have been doing it, and that was the point.

diff · Jan 16, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I think someone earlier suggested the following clause to magebane:

"If Magebane Shot fails to interrupt a spell, it is disabled for X...Y seconds"

and scales with marksmanship.

If nobody suggested this before, I'll suggest it now. Spam problem solved.

That is quite close to the original version of Magebane Shot: Long recharge and instant recharge for a succesfull spell interrupt. I think the skill would be fine, if it returns to this concept and keeps the "cannot be blocked" clause from the current version.

Yue · Jan 16, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

No they aren't.

Yes, they are. Party healing is enough. I've been playing the game in this meta. You haven't.

Which reminds me, I thought you fixed the issue with your school blocking gw.

Kaon · Jan 16, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Because lag means those interrupts on your bar are suddenly much less powerful, they need to be nerfed more?

Absolutely, they need to be nerfed from godlyness (on correct ping) and more important, they need to buff the alternatives. As i've said my biggest probem is that shutdown these days is almost ENTIRELY interrupt based. This is bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Yes, lag will determine whether you can get spells in the .66 (e.g. mesmer ward) - 1s (e.g. fc aegis) range. In my view, you should always be able to get these, ping-wise, the fact that you cannot is more a reason to buff Anet servers than to nerf things though.
Lag is bad in any game. It is however reasonably fair. In my experience the host server is somewhere 'in the middle' of both guilds' home base, which normally results in both teams experiencing similar lag. So all it does is change interrupting dynamics for everyone, reducing their power.

Yet this is totally unrealistic. You simply cannot have flawless ping against asians unless there's some kind of direct connection. And they're not going to place a server in the middle of khazakstan or the atlantic ocean just for gw matches. Lag is an almost insurmountable problem that we all accept as something natural to the internet, just like we accept that we can't lick our own dicks in real life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Yes agreed, to an extent fc sets do introduce a strong chance element. So does a Ward's 50% block though. And when I am trying to hit stuff under Price of Failure it always seems like that 25% to miss manages to 'luckily' make 3 out of 4 attacks miss. GW is based on a lot of chance rolls. Are you OK with 36% recharge then? Those aren't directly affected by interrupts but they do make a similar difference, based on chance entirely (i.e., a fr aegis when you've suffered a disruption in your defense will prevent a teamwipe).

Yep, and such chances are bad enough already. There is no need to add even more of them. Now both casters and physicals alike have the same problem. Also, if chances should by introduced, they should be as "certain" as possible ie: very low or very high. As a cripshot you could count on your cripshot/unguent not getting interrupted cause of 75% distortion, these days its 50% natural stride and it's a pure gamble. And gambling should not have anything to do with highend play in any game or sport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Anyway, it also seems to me that bringing a water snarer means you willingly take this chance (^^) of getting interrupted-- their spells aren't mostly slow casting for nothing. Besides, HEV > water ele, talk about a game of chance.

Yet it is (i should say was as a partygon is almost always truely superior) extremely powerful in many situations. Besides, it counts not just for water eles but for almost every class. And as i've said earlier; HEV is one of the most ridiculous skill in the game as it is either useless or overpowered. Still, ive never lost to HEV as water ele, just because i am THAT good

. It should give the opponent the edge but it doesnt instantly decide the match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Beer needs a nerf!

Hell no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Reaction time is a big part of personal skill, it should pay off in my view. As I argued above, lag only reduces interrupt power, and it acts as a universal pacifier for both teams.

Yet it shouldnt be everthing the class can do. Also, lag is not the same for both teams, and as i said, if you have interrupts and face japs that take only few interrupts then youre screwed on bad ping, it rarely keeps things equal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Mesmers usually carry only power leak and power drain as far as I am aware, so cancelling is generally quite worthwhile.

You cant always cancel all your spells. A ward is 15 energy (and cannot always be casted under glyph), and as a monk you really dont want to wait with casting a spell as it often means death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Maybe, but I begin to wonder whether this partially reflects positively biased memories of longtime players. What was so dynamic then? Gale locking monks?

The game was much more unforgiving. Therefore the game changed situation quickly. EVERYTHING died much more easily. People had less health, less equipment, and "worse" skills. Back then a cripshot vs cripshot would almost always lead into someone getting killed. These days a cripshot will NEVER die against another cripshot. Mending touch is gay. Also, there werent any sickingly overpowered speedbuffs in the game, so boosting and splitting was easier. Of course this was necessary as hardresses sucked and people lived mostly on signets.

Back then roles often required more skill, or allowed people to show it off more.

Yet you also had countless superoverpowered builds, im glad thats over.

Vanquisher · Jan 16, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Yes, they are. Party healing is enough. I've been playing the game in this meta. You haven't.

Which reminds me, I thought you fixed the issue with your school blocking gw.

Pretty sure Iso says differently. And yeah, but I've got life to worry about now.

Martin Firestorm · Jan 16, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Lag is an almost insurmountable problem that we all accept as something natural to the internet, just like we accept that we can't lick our own dicks in real life.

lol....a rough analogy at best

Vanquisher · Jan 16, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Pretty sure Iso is overrated.

Pretty sure he Monks and Yue doesn't.

erk · Jan 16, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Tbh crip shot is better elite than magebane if you plan on doing any splitting. The movement control it provides is just too good not to take (unless you know your playing 8v8). The only hit to magebane would be to give it 10 energy as a nerf to recharge would be too much for the skill imo.

Problem is that the current blockway meta tends to make everyone like to keep near the wards or Aegis range, and spamming splinter etc. so that's where Magebane has crept in. I am not a fan of anything that can take a caster offline for an extended period by spamming. That's the case with Magebane, and with knockdown chains, the caster should always have a window of opportunity to fight back and show his skill.

Back on track, I would like to see a shift in the meta that encourages more splits for two reasons, firstly I think they make GvG more interesting, secondly they break up the ward Aegis blockway camping. What I don't know is how to encourage more splitting, that's for the experts to work out.

Captain Robo · Jan 17, 2008, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

DF Monks are still capable of standing up to offensive threats without defense webs.

Fixed.

If it can be done, its wholly an ability issue.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 17, 2008, 07:20 AM // 07:20

It's pretty easy to stand up to offensive threats when the other team is wiping due to Chiizu being RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing amazing.

Cass · Jan 17, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Absolutely, they need to be nerfed from godlyness (on correct ping) and more important, they need to buff the alternatives. As i've said my biggest probem is that shutdown these days is almost ENTIRELY interrupt based. This is bad.

It's a bit of a paradox that this thread is about the 'problematic defensive power of blockwebs', and here it is argued that this one tool (i.e., interrupts)effective enough to break that web should be nerfed.

Two points here. First. Breaking defenses is not godliness. I've said before that being unable to do that would result in a stale game.
As others have noted, in the past this may have been different. But what would now see play as a disruptive factor instead? Piling of energy denial? Pressure a la Tainted? Several KDs? Signet of Humility? None of these are interesting plays IMO.
Second. Current mesmer and ranger bars these are not so heavily interrupt based as you would make it seem. Magebane (which is pretty lame, but somewhat inherent to the class I guess) may be the one exeception of a truly spammable interrupt. But look at mesmers in particular... power leak, power drain... that's it. There are several other utility skills on various chars that have shutdown roles, and they are not based on interrupts: Diversion, Shame, Gale, Hammer KDs, Enchant removal.

Quote:

Yep, and such chances are bad enough already. There is no need to add even more of them. Now both casters and physicals alike have the same problem. Also, if chances should by introduced, they should be as "certain" as possible ie: very low or very high. As a cripshot you could count on your cripshot/unguent not getting interrupted cause of 75% distortion, these days its 50% natural stride and it's a pure gamble. And gambling should not have anything to do with highend play in any game or sport.

This chance issue has become a bit unrealistic. The scenario you gave was snaring a runner and your fc set determining whether you boost or not. This is a situation heavily primed towards everything depending on that one cast of yours and the whole world looking at you.
On a fair number of occassions casting is not quite that critical and the opponent's interrupted may NOT be sitting on you, and only switch to you when he perceives a need to do so. The implicit assumption that crucial casts will always be interrupted unless FCed is misleading. Not because of failing interrupters, but because it is not possible to keep track of recharges of every crucial skill-- thanks to FR sets in large part.
In sum, although I do not deny the presence of a chance factor here, it is not quite as glaring as you presented it and I think it fits with the general dice rolling of the game.

Quote:

Yet it shouldnt be everthing the class can do. Also, lag is not the same for both teams, and as i said, if you have interrupts and face japs that take only few interrupts then youre screwed on bad ping, it rarely keeps things equal.

It isn't. Would you rate Power Leak higher than Diversion? Yep, ping is a bitsj as we established but my argument remains: When you get screwed with high ping, interrupts are only weakened. There really is no logic in nerfing them so that they are not taken anymore, so that this in turn makes the ping drawback disappear. Monks suffer from high ping too by the way, but nobody wants to nerf reactive monk skills because of that.

Quote:

You cant always cancel all your spells. A ward is 15 energy (and cannot always be casted under glyph), and as a monk you really dont want to wait with casting a spell as it often means death.

Actually I hate the whole cancel mechanic under Glyph. A bug IMO. ^^